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Apr 5, 2022·edited Apr 5, 2022Liked by dynomight

Great account. I was drawn into 2 cults in my 20s, although not quite like this.

In terms of how to draw the line, I think it's primarily about consent and impact. If the impact of someone reading your more persuasive humidifier essay is they don't buy a humidifier and perhaps prevent health harms from that, is was consensual and lead to net positive impact. If someone persuades a person to join a cult and the net impact is they cut off all their friends and family and lose multiple years of their life to the high-demand group, the impact is very negative and no one would have willingly consented to that.

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Somebody tried an abbreviated version of that on me one time-- a woman changing beside me in the locker room of a gym. I can't remember the details of how the exchange started, except that it was friendly chat, chat that was just definitely *more friendly* and *more intense* than the occasional brief exchange I'd had with others under the same circumstances -- so I felt a bit unsettled by it. At the same time, she was my age, attractive, well-spoken and personable, and I thought, "Ok, it's unusual, I'm a bit uncomfortable with this, but maybe I've just lucked into a conversational experience that isn't as burdened by darkness & standoffishness as my usual exchanges with strangers." So I went with it. The experience opened up the exact same spaces in me that have occasionally been opened up to good effect -- when I've tried something new, or sort of voluntarily lurched into being more spontaneous and frank than usual, and ended up in love with a person or with a sport I've never tried before.

But within 5 or 10 mins of chat she was talking about meetings where people got together to talk about things, and how to live a good life, and somehow "GOD" came into it. I am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, and as soon as the G-word was uttered the scales fell from my eyes and I was instantly furious. I felt sort of date-raped -- like my amiability and willingness to give her the benefit of the doubt had been expertly exploited as portals. I was instantly furious, mortified and brutal: "Nope, I don't want to attend. And I can't believe you chatted me up while we were both half-naked just to try to get me to come to your fucking GOD meetings."

So -- I was a lot less mellow than you about it -- which I'm not claiming was a superior reaction.

I like your description of the techniques these people use as tunnels. I think you're right. I really don't think, though, that it's fair to compare your techniques for keeping readers engaged and open to you to the funnels these cult seductresses employ. When you're writing, there's no back-and-forth -- you don't have the constant feedback you get when talking to someone. In an actual conversation, you would be attuned to ways the other person might feel put on the spot, pressured to react a certain way, intruded upon, etc. -- and I expect that in a real conversation you would adjust how you're coming on based on what you observe. But when you write something -- well, both you and the reader know that this is a situation where you cannot take in and and respond to cues about how they're reacting to what you have to say. Writing in a way that "funnels" the reader towards being receptive to your ideas is a whole different situation. Yes, you are trying to get them to take an interest in your "cult" -- the ideas you're writing about that day -- but you are not doing that by exploiting their amiability, their desire to be kind and polite, their trust that you will adjust your communication in response to their reactions.

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Your point at the end reminds me of how there's a blurry line between "scamming" someone and merely "persuading" or "influencing" them. One tactic I've noticed is people will say "you don't have to if you don't want to!" or variations thereof to make it seem like you're joining them of your own accord. NXIVM did this in The Vow, and so do, e.g., people raising money for a cause.

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I really wish you had joined their meetings. seems like the definitive proof step is missing from this discussion.

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Apr 7, 2022·edited Apr 7, 2022Liked by dynomight

> But they walked into that cafe, looked around, and decided I was the easy prey.

They put a surprisingly large amount of effort into socializing with you. Are you wealthy or do you appear to be wealthy? Or do you have a job that gives you a certain amount of power? Seems they could have been motivated by something like that.

If I had that experience myself I personally wouldn't ascribe any negative affect to these people. Being honest and open about what you want out of a social interaction goes both ways. You were happy having lunch with a new group of folks but didn't want to join their cult. They were happy to have lunch with you and also wanted you to join their cult. And you both made your positions clear to the other at about the same time.

I have this common experience with homeless people. They'll come up to me clearly looking to get money out of the interaction, but they open up with something that has absolutely nothing to do with money: "Oh hey man that's a nice jacket, you know I'm going to be needing to get me one of those when I start my new job in a month." Sometimes if I have nothing else to do I'll respond casually and we'll have a small talk conversation for a few minutes. When it comes down to the ask I'll say no. Sometimes that makes them pissed.

Who's in the wrong in that situation? Is the homeless person in the wrong because they attempted to disguise their true goal of getting money? Or am I in the wrong because I subtly implied I was willing to give them money by engaging in conversation with them? I'm inclined to believe either both are in the wrong or neither are. (is it weird I'm comparing my social morality to that of a homeless person? probably)

And we have common terms for both types of behavior. It is deceptive to engage with somebody when you know you won't be willing to give them what they want. We call that "leading someone on." When someone clearly wants something more from you but is just asking you out 'as friends' we call that being creepy or indirect.

Hopefully you got something small out of your new and unusual experience. You at least got a blogpost out of it.

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‘How do you draw the line between “sensibly taking into account how real people react” and “manipulative dark patterns to literally get people to join your cult”?’

Maybe it’s just that the practice of not showing your hand too early is a symmetric weapon, in the sense of https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/24/guided-by-the-beauty-of-our-weapons/ ? Anyone can build a case slowly without revealing the thesis right out of the gate - I’m not sure it’s a dark or light pattern.

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I just read your 'things you can't talk about because it makes them not come true' article and it seems like it's applicable here. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt (I wasn't there to sense the vibe), and imagining a group of people who like talking about things generally not talked about openly (the Big Questions).

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