There are almost certainly other inconsistencies, but I was hoping that people like you will help point them out, thank you!
I was able to confirm what you said regarding advertising abortion. (It looks like there was some partial promise to not enforce things from 2019 but that's now fully lifted?) Do you have a citation for the 22 weeks bit, even in German? I can't seem to find any information about it. And regarding the penalties for people other than the mother, can you clarify what gestational period that would apply to?
Thanks, I'm committed to fixing this but I'm still confused! It sound like:
1) Before 12 weeks no one is prosecuted assuming counseling etc.
2) After 22 weeks it's only allowed for the life of the woman.
3) Between 12 and 22 weeks: ???
I think you're saying that between 12 and 22 weeks it's still illegal to perform an abortion for any reason except life of the woman It's just the the mother can't be punished during that period. If so, I think my chart should remove all exceptions except life of the woman after the 12th week from conception. Does that seem right?
Cool I'll fix that. I thiiiinnkkk you can edit your comment by clicking on the "..." symbol. (At least I can edit mine that way.) But no worries in any case.
Thanks for the excellent summary. The unity of language would have you think that the US is much more unified, but seen through the abortion lens it seems to be as diverse as the EU.
Also I chuckled at « de-jour » for « de-jure » (like you ordered the abortion du jour)
>On the other hand, several states have banned abortion from conception, with only exceptions for >the life of the woman (no exceptions for rape, incest, or lethal fetal abnormalities): Alabama, >Arkansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Texas. (For Texas, the law is currently >held up in court.)
>These laws are more restrictive than almost anywhere else in the rich world.
I think a potential caveat to this is that these laws are new/newly in effect after Dobbs and have not been active in quite a while. In comparison the other countries you mentioned (Germany, Canada etc.) have similar criminalization but an ocean of precedent, exceptions, special cases etc. walking back the overall ruling. I expect that given time, if Dobbs and the "total ban" laws stick, the total ban states will erode their own blanket bans with exceptions of their own
Small relatively recent update- you mention New Hampshire as a state with no gestational limit, but as of January 2022, it's banned after 24 weeks (with exceptions for life of the mother and fatal fetal diagnoses)
> In most US states, there are now zero providers who provide (above board, not black market) elective abortions. You can find the latest here: https://www.abortionfinder.org/
I also think it would be great if you cross referenced this data with state/country maternal and infant mortality rates - that information is very readily accessible.
Thank you, this seems like a very important update! According to abortionfinder.org, as far as I can tell, the only states that actually have clinics that offer abortions on demand with at very late gestational terms (>30 weeks) are Washington DC, New Mexico, and Colorado. There also appear to be clinics that provide them with some limit that's later than 24 weeks in at least New Jersey, New York, and Illinois, Oregon, and Washington. It's hard to be 100% sure though because a lot of the clinics in the states that have no legal gestational limit say "call".
My goal was mostly to classify things outside the US and I'll have to look into this more carefully, but at a minimum it looks like the line for Vermont in the figure is incorrect and the text discussing the US needs to be updated. I'll do both of these. Thanks again.
Absolutely! Thank you for digging in on this. Most recent info I can find is there are only four doctors, nationwide, who provide abortion after 30 weeks without a significant fetal/maternal health indication.
I don't know anything about abortion in Germany, but based on a comment (https://tildes.net/~news/1222/weekly_us_politics_news_and_updates_thread_week_of_july_25#comment-7ea1) I think it might not be right to say that abortion "is always illegal" in Germany. Note that in the translation, in one of the exceptions it says "A termination which is performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not unlawful if [...]"
> A termination which is performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not unlawful if, considering the pregnant woman’s present and future circumstances, the termination is medically necessary to avert a danger to the life of or the danger of grave impairment to the pregnant woman’s physical or mental health and if the danger cannot be averted in another manner which is reasonable for her to accept.
But it's still a bit debatable--the entire section the above quote is in is called "Exemption from punishment for abortion". I suppose that to some degree, debating if nonpunishable offenses are really "illegal" or not is kind of a hopeless exercise. But regardless, I'll find a re-wording to reduce the claim to only refer to on-demand abortion before 12 weeks that's "illegal but not punished".
There are almost certainly other inconsistencies, but I was hoping that people like you will help point them out, thank you!
I was able to confirm what you said regarding advertising abortion. (It looks like there was some partial promise to not enforce things from 2019 but that's now fully lifted?) Do you have a citation for the 22 weeks bit, even in German? I can't seem to find any information about it. And regarding the penalties for people other than the mother, can you clarify what gestational period that would apply to?
Thanks, I'm committed to fixing this but I'm still confused! It sound like:
1) Before 12 weeks no one is prosecuted assuming counseling etc.
2) After 22 weeks it's only allowed for the life of the woman.
3) Between 12 and 22 weeks: ???
I think you're saying that between 12 and 22 weeks it's still illegal to perform an abortion for any reason except life of the woman It's just the the mother can't be punished during that period. If so, I think my chart should remove all exceptions except life of the woman after the 12th week from conception. Does that seem right?
Cool I'll fix that. I thiiiinnkkk you can edit your comment by clicking on the "..." symbol. (At least I can edit mine that way.) But no worries in any case.
Thanks for the excellent summary. The unity of language would have you think that the US is much more unified, but seen through the abortion lens it seems to be as diverse as the EU.
Also I chuckled at « de-jour » for « de-jure » (like you ordered the abortion du jour)
> Also I chuckled at « de-jour » for « de-jure »
🤦
Spellcheck, why hast thou forsaken me?
>Near-total abortion bans are rare
>On the other hand, several states have banned abortion from conception, with only exceptions for >the life of the woman (no exceptions for rape, incest, or lethal fetal abnormalities): Alabama, >Arkansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Texas. (For Texas, the law is currently >held up in court.)
>These laws are more restrictive than almost anywhere else in the rich world.
I think a potential caveat to this is that these laws are new/newly in effect after Dobbs and have not been active in quite a while. In comparison the other countries you mentioned (Germany, Canada etc.) have similar criminalization but an ocean of precedent, exceptions, special cases etc. walking back the overall ruling. I expect that given time, if Dobbs and the "total ban" laws stick, the total ban states will erode their own blanket bans with exceptions of their own
Small relatively recent update- you mention New Hampshire as a state with no gestational limit, but as of January 2022, it's banned after 24 weeks (with exceptions for life of the mother and fatal fetal diagnoses)
Planned parenthood seems to have the most complete picture of the current state of things: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-northern-new-england/campaigns/new-hampshire-abortion-law
Thank you, fixed!
Two quick notes:
> No provider in Vermont provides elective third trimester abortions. https://vtdigger.org/2019/02/15/vermonts-proposed-law-allow-abortions-right-moment-birth/ This is also true in other 'no restrictions' states. Would be great if you did a similar analysis you did for Italy on US no-restrictions states.
> In most US states, there are now zero providers who provide (above board, not black market) elective abortions. You can find the latest here: https://www.abortionfinder.org/
I also think it would be great if you cross referenced this data with state/country maternal and infant mortality rates - that information is very readily accessible.
>
Thank you, this seems like a very important update! According to abortionfinder.org, as far as I can tell, the only states that actually have clinics that offer abortions on demand with at very late gestational terms (>30 weeks) are Washington DC, New Mexico, and Colorado. There also appear to be clinics that provide them with some limit that's later than 24 weeks in at least New Jersey, New York, and Illinois, Oregon, and Washington. It's hard to be 100% sure though because a lot of the clinics in the states that have no legal gestational limit say "call".
My goal was mostly to classify things outside the US and I'll have to look into this more carefully, but at a minimum it looks like the line for Vermont in the figure is incorrect and the text discussing the US needs to be updated. I'll do both of these. Thanks again.
Absolutely! Thank you for digging in on this. Most recent info I can find is there are only four doctors, nationwide, who provide abortion after 30 weeks without a significant fetal/maternal health indication.
I don't know anything about abortion in Germany, but based on a comment (https://tildes.net/~news/1222/weekly_us_politics_news_and_updates_thread_week_of_july_25#comment-7ea1) I think it might not be right to say that abortion "is always illegal" in Germany. Note that in the translation, in one of the exceptions it says "A termination which is performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not unlawful if [...]"
Yeah, maybe you're right. The full quote is:
> A termination which is performed by a physician with the consent of the pregnant woman is not unlawful if, considering the pregnant woman’s present and future circumstances, the termination is medically necessary to avert a danger to the life of or the danger of grave impairment to the pregnant woman’s physical or mental health and if the danger cannot be averted in another manner which is reasonable for her to accept.
But it's still a bit debatable--the entire section the above quote is in is called "Exemption from punishment for abortion". I suppose that to some degree, debating if nonpunishable offenses are really "illegal" or not is kind of a hopeless exercise. But regardless, I'll find a re-wording to reduce the claim to only refer to on-demand abortion before 12 weeks that's "illegal but not punished".